Judy Cho’s Introduction... [00:00:00]
Microbiome 101... [00:00:54]
The Importance and Uncertainty of Microbiome Diversity... [00:02:00]
The Meat-based Elimination Diet and its Effectiveness... [00:07:00]
Gut Issues in CFS Patients [00:10:38 - 00:11:22]
The Individualized Approach to Diet [00:12:00]
Importance of Baselines and Monitoring [00:12:43]
Chronic Fatigue, Gut Issues, and Probiotics [00:20:39]
Antibiotics and the Impact on Gut Health [00:21:04]
Choosing the Right Probiotics [00:22:00]
Balancing Probiotics Intake [00:24:00]
Coffee's Effect on Vitamin Absorption - [00:34:56]
Meat-based Elimination Diet, Histamine Intolerance, and Ways to Manage It - [00:38:00]
Experimenting and Alternatives for Histamine Reduction - [00:41:59]
Benefits of the Carnivore Elimination Diet - [00:43:00]
Conclusion and Gratitude - [00:45:58]

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Lorrie Rivers

Here today with Judy Cho, a nutritional therapy practitioner and the author of "The Carnivore Cure." Judy holds a psychology and communications degree from the University of California, Berkeley, and has a holistic health private practice focusing on gut health and root cause healing. She also concentrates on meat-based elimination diets, especially beneficial when dealing with chronic illnesses. Judy, you're a rock star in the nutrition world. We're going to discuss the microbiome with you today. Welcome, Judy, and thank you for being here.

Judy Cho

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to discuss gut health.

Lorrie Rivers

Microbiome is a term we're hearing frequently, especially in the holistic health realm. What exactly is the microbiome?

Judy Cho

Simply put, the microbiome is part of our body comprising viruses, fungi, and a significant amount of bacteria. Most of the research focuses on bacteria. They regard the microbiome or the set of bacteria as our second brain. It influences numerous bodily functions. We have a skin microbiome, but our most substantial one is our gut microbiome, primarily located in the large intestine's cecum. Here, viruses, pathogens, gut bugs, and bacteria predominantly reside. A lack of bacterial variety indicates our microbiome isn't balanced or lacks diversity. Although DNA sequencing has given us some insight into which strains are beneficial, there's still much we don't know.

While diversity is often championed, the importance of a diverse diet may be overstated. A recent study I was involved with demonstrated that a carnivorous diet was more effective in treating small intestinal bacterial overgrowth than any other elimination diet. Though meat consumption might reduce bacterial diversity, its importance is still debatable. Over the years, I've witnessed significant gut healing in clients without needing medicine for root cause healing I don't necessarily advocate for high fiber or a vast variety of plant consumption, as these recommendations are relatively recent. Historically, our gut health was possibly better without such a varied intake.

Lorrie Rivers

The idea of reducing plant consumption is still novel to many, including me. But it does make sense, considering our ancestors didn't have access to a diverse range of plants and fruits as we do now.

Judy Cho

Precisely. Good gut health is crucial, especially when dealing with conditions like colitis or autoimmune diseases, which often originate from gut imbalances. Ensuring efficient digestion and absorption is more important than focusing solely on specific microbes. For instance, if you experience bloating or burping soon after eating, it might be an upper GI issue. Consuming carb-rich, fiber-dense foods causing gas and sharp pains indicates small intestine distress. It's essential to pinpoint and address these issues rather than concentrating solely on microbiome diversity. For example, while probiotics can be beneficial, they don't necessarily need prebiotic foods to thrive.

By basing a diet on meat, which is nutrient-dense and bioavailable, even those with compromised gut health can absorb nutrients efficiently. All elimination diets, except for vegan ones, prioritize meat. Reducing plant intake might help alleviate gas, bloating, and immune responses. Once the gut heals, you can reintroduce foods and gauge their impact on your body, making gut health paramount.

Lorrie Rivers

Many with CFS struggle with debilitating gut issues. My own experience two decades ago involved alternating between diarrhea and constipation. Adopting an elimination diet simplifies things. Shifting to diets like ketogenic or paleolithic can be confusing, but carnivore diets provide clarity.

Judy Cho

I'm a big proponent of listening to symptoms. I understand there are rules, and generally speaking, the majority of the population fits into certain categories. But essentially, what you should do is go by your symptoms. If you're eating a certain type of meat, and your fatigue lessens or you feel better, perhaps you're fueling your body correctly. You know your body better than anyone else.

So rather than strictly counting calories, it's helpful to note down how you feel after each meal. Track your mood, your energy, even your stool. If you notice trends, like feeling better after eating beef or chicken, that's your path to personal healing. There are baseline diets and trends, but ultimately, it's about finding what works for you. Starting with meat and slowly reintroducing foods might be the simplest approach.

Lorrie Rivers

There are confusing areas, like candida die-off. If someone transitions from a carb-rich or typical American diet to a carnivore elimination diet, they might feel terrible initially. How should we navigate that?

Judy Cho

This is where individual responses really come into play. The Herxheimer reaction or "Herx effect" might make you feel worse before you get better. It's challenging to know if you're sticking to a diet longer than necessary or if you haven't given it enough time. There are multiple factors, like getting your macro balance right or maybe under-eating. This is when consulting with a coach can be beneficial. With something like Candida, it's rarely the only issue. You might also be dealing with parasites or heavy metals. Testing can help, but not always. If after 90 days on a new diet you don't see improvements, consider other tests and be honest with yourself about your commitment. It's also wise to get blood work done before and after starting a new diet to track changes.

Lorrie Rivers

So when you say "pull different levers," what do you mean?

Judy Cho

It can refer to several things. Some women might be eating too lean, fearing fat, and consuming insufficient calories. In such cases, increasing fat intake can be beneficial. Another lever might be getting a stool test or checking for Candida. It's about exploring various strategies to determine what's not working. For instance, if energy is still low on a meat-based diet, you might want to check your hormone levels. Are you fasting too much? Are you consuming enough calories? Before returning to a diet full of nutrient-poor foods and inflammation triggers, try different approaches.

Lorrie Rivers

That's a clear explanation. Regarding processed foods like pasta and cereals, they're often fortified. It's like admitting they lack vital nutrients.

Judy Cho

Precisely. Instead of encouraging consumption of meat with its bioavailable nutrients, we've fortified foods. The quality of fortification is also a concern. Many might use low-quality supplements. For instance, some cereals are fortified with literal iron filings, which is toxic. The regulation for fortification isn't stringent, making it questionable.

Lorrie Rivers

That's shocking! So, for people with issues like chronic fatigue or long COVID, would you recommend probiotics?

Judy Cho

I do for a lot of my clients, primarily because if you've been on antibiotics, there are studies indicating that several years after taking antibiotics, it may still take a while for your good gut bugs to flourish. Some suggest two years while others say just a few months. The truth is, we don't have a definite answer. And the consumption of antibiotics has only increased. Moreover, we constantly use hand sanitizers, which are antibacterial. Even when we consume organic carrots, they might be treated with citrux, another antibacterial agent. If the carrot bag says no washing is needed, you consume that antibacterial residue. This continuous intake kills beneficial microbes.

Glyphosate on GMO foods targets a bacteria's shikimate pathway. While it might not directly kill human cells, it does destroy our bacteria. This is another danger of consuming genetically modified foods with glyphosate. With all this in consideration, our bacterial count is probably less than ideal. I've observed significant healing among my clients when they incorporate probiotics into their routine. But there's a myriad of probiotics out there. The real question is: Which one should we take?

Lorrie Rivers

Yeah. Which types do you recommend?

Judy Cho

It's not as simple as saying "Take lactobacillus." While some studies promote certain strains for specific benefits, digging deeper reveals that excess can cause issues. Broadly, there are three primary types of probiotics. Firstly, soil or spore-based probiotics found in the ground. I favor these because they can thrive in our bodies. Some studies indicate they aid in healing. Secondly, there's Saccharomyces boulardii. And thirdly, lacto and bifido strains. These last two are transient; they benefit us while we consume them but won't persist after. You should choose based on your symptoms. Some work better for certain individuals. But long-term, we shouldn't rely on them. Clean diet should be the focus. Maybe one can take them occasionally as maintenance, but if your diet is optimal, you might not need them.

Lorrie Rivers

That's a refreshing perspective. I think there's a common belief that probiotics are essential for good health.

Judy Cho

It makes sense to consider them if your gut flora is compromised. But if you're living healthily and not taking antibiotics, why introduce external strains? We should allow our bodies to naturally manage its microbiome. Extended probiotic use might alter our microbial balance. We don't have enough research to say this adjustment is always beneficial. There are studies that attempt to decipher a healthy microbiome by analyzing fecal samples from healthy individuals. But diets, genetics, and environments differ. People tend to overcomplicate nutrition. While initial supplementation might be necessary, the goal should be to eventually let the body manage itself.

Lorrie Rivers

That's a message I wish more people understood. Now, about coffee. I remember you mentioning it in your "Carnivore Cure" book. Can you elaborate on that?

Judy Cho

I have mixed feelings about coffee. Life demands balance. If we were to eliminate all potential health risks, we'd live in a bubble. But even that's not practical! With coffee, it's about determining what you're willing to accept in your life. For instance, while I avoid my apple watch due to its EMFs, I still occasionally use plastic cups. It's about choosing your battles. For many on a meat-based diet, coffee is the one thing they'd hate to give up. However, coffee can be problematic, especially for those sensitive to mold, as coffee beans often harbor mold. This is true for tea leaves as well.

Something about tea leaves I'm not sure about off the top of my head, but they might harbor other toxins. You see, they need to be dried, and with drying comes the potential for mold.

I've also read about the risks of caffeine. Initially, drinking coffee gives us a burst of energy from the cortisol spike, but over time, we simply drink coffee to feel "normal". The more concerning part is that a large portion of the caffeine we consume is produced synthetically in labs, and there's no strict monitoring of its production. This means there are instances where kids consume too much caffeine from energy drinks, leading to cardiac arrhythmia, seizures, and even death.

Many countries, like Europe and Canada, require warning labels after a certain caffeine threshold, but the U.S. doesn’t. For instance, if you've ever ordered a large coffee from Starbucks, the amount of caffeine might vary based on factors like how the beans were grown or how the barista brewed it.

Another thing to consider is that individuals with anxiety may benefit from quitting caffeine. Studies have shown a link between caffeine consumption and heightened emotional responses. Moreover, caffeine can raise blood sugar levels. So if someone's blood sugar remains high despite not consuming many carbohydrates, it might be the coffee spiking their cortisol and blood sugar. And don't even get me started on how caffeine affects our sleep!

While researching for my book, I discovered that an average dose of 250 milligrams of caffeine can decrease cerebral blood flow by 30%. So, even though we feel sharp after drinking caffeine, it reduces blood flow to our brain. I personally cut out coffee for about six months and noticed more stable energy levels throughout the day.

Lorrie Rivers

That's fascinating. Another thing I learned is that caffeine hampers our body's ability to absorb vitamin B1.

Judy Cho

Absolutely. Vitamin B1, or thiamine, is vital for energy production. Pork is an excellent source of thiamine, way more than beef. So, for those concerned about thiamine intake, pork is a great option.

Lorrie Rivers

That's insightful. I often advise people in my course to cut out coffee, at least for a while, to let the body stabilize. Adding caffeine to an already unstable system can exacerbate issues.

Judy Cho

I couldn't agree more. Coffee has become such an integral part of our culture, making it harder to let go. There are, however, alternatives to help transition off coffee, like herbal teas. Some people also find Swiss water decaf coffee helpful. And for those experiencing caffeine withdrawal, taurine supplements might help alleviate some symptoms.

Lorrie Rivers

Interesting. Shifting back to the carnivore diet, what do you suggest for those with histamine intolerance or mass cell activation syndrome? I noticed when I consumed a lot of red beef, which is aged and therefore has higher histamines, I started to develop allergic reactions.

Judy Cho

For those with histamine issues, it's essential to be mindful of meat freshness. Freshly slaughtered and frozen meat might be a better option than aged ones. Avoiding ground beef, which tends to accumulate more histamines due to increased surface area exposure, can also help. Listening to your body is key, and it might require some trial and error to see what works best.

A lot of our DAO enzyme is produced in our small intestine which helps regulate many histamines. However, histamines are broadly defined. Any allergic response to foods might be attributed to histamines, or it might be related to the mass cell. Generally, the key is to focus on gut health.

Most of the enzymes that break down histamines are in your small intestine, and the majority of your immune response is also there. By healing the small intestine, it may better tolerate histamines. Ideally, if most people can eat ground beef without issue, so should everyone else.

In the meantime, reducing high-histamine foods can be beneficial. This includes canned foods, aged foods, and cured meats. Some of my more histamine-sensitive clients opt for meats that have been hung for about two weeks and then frozen. However, in general, it's best to go for solid meats, avoiding ground beef and cured meats. I suggest checking which meats have fewer histamines and then experimenting by slowly reintroducing different meats.

For example, one of my clients started with an ounce of meat to gauge her reaction. During her dietary change, she also focused on gut healing. It's essential to find meats with fewer histamines and maybe even contact butchers that freeze their meats immediately. Histamines increase as meat ages or is cured.

Some theories suggest that copper deficiency or lack of vitamin C might be linked to histamine intolerance. While I haven't seen significant evidence of this, it might be worth exploring. Vitamin C-rich foods like camu or lemon water could be beneficial, while copper can be found in shellfish, though they are high in histamines.

To conclude, I've noticed that clients with histamine intolerances often do well with fresh steaks.

Lorrie Rivers

That's insightful. I tried lamb and veal for a while, but it gets expensive. To wrap up, what differences have you seen in clients after they've been on the carnivore elimination diet for a few months?

Judy Cho

Most of my clients approach me after already trying a meat-based diet that isn't quite working for them. After some time on the diet and with some additional gut healing, I see improvements across the board. Mental health improvements are particularly significant. I personally battled depression and an eating disorder for years, but switching to a meat-based diet has transformed my health. Considering that a majority of our neurotransmitters are in our gut, it makes sense how diet affects mental health.

If people struggle with gut health or autoimmune issues, a meat-based diet offers a clean and healing approach. It doesn't mean one has to eat only meat indefinitely, but it's a nutrient-dense starting point. I genuinely believe that if more people adopted a meat-based diet, the pharmaceutical industry would shrink significantly.

Lorrie Rivers

That's a bold statement, Judy. Thank you for your insights. Your book has been an invaluable resource, and I'll link it below for our readers.

Judy Cho

Thank you. Meat provided me with a second chance at life. I want to share the message that perhaps by changing our diet, we can heal. As people experience this healing, I hope they share their journey with others.

DISCLAIMER: The information offered is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended as a substitute for medical or psychological care or advice. Consult your physician or other health care provider regarding your symptoms and medical and psychological needs.

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Lorrie Interviews Judy Cho of the Carnivore Cure

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